[Music]
I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri the
world's greatest saxophone player is
something to be he's not an
African-American as you might expect him
to be never sat by the Mississippi
absorbing Jazz and the Blues in fact he
came upon these genre in the only Record
Shop as we used to call them in the
unlikely neighborhood of Tel Aviv that's
right he's an Israeli Jew who even
served in the Israeli Army he saw the
light politically in occupied Lebanon
when he saw a row of small concrete
canels in which he imagined the soldiers
kept their alans before discovering it
was where the soldiers kept their
Palestinian victims those that they
hadn't killed he went on the road and
never turned back to the Zionism of his
youth he's politically fascinating
artistically he's a genius and he's here
Welcome gilad atsmon to the Sputnik uh I
I want to get some artistic points out
of the way because you're too modest to
do it you are on the new Pink Floyd
album for 20 years you've been a
blockhead by which I mean the wonderful
uh English band formerly fronted by Ian
Drury The Blockheads uh how much of your
life is occupied by music nowadays and
how much by politics
to start with I'm not engaged in
politics at all I never been a member of
any party or anything as such I'm
concerned with humanist matters and I
write
about what does it mean to live amongst
others to your
question I'm playing every night I'm
recording a lot I'm touring a lot
constantly and in between between I read
and write this is your new album this is
my new album The Whistleblower tell us
about it it's just about it's just about
to come out in few days in the beginning
of January well I I haven't heard this
album yet but I've heard you play yeah
you really are uh a genius you are going
to teach me uh to play the saxophone and
maybe on a later edition of the Sputnik
we'll show us doing a rap you wrote a
book uh which I read with some
trepidation because there's been a big
job done on you to paint you in a really
negative way yeah and I was enthral both
of us were in fact I used in it was the
early days of our marriage I used to
read her a chapter of your book every
night we went to bed thinking I think
this is what I recommend all young
couple you know is that read G before
you go to sleep it's a sort of
contraception um it was called the
wondering who uh which is a fantastic
title and titles are really important uh
in books tell us what led to the book
and what it's about um I really think
that uh we are H Mis have been misled
for quite a long time in our
understanding of
Zionism
Israel uh the work of the lobby and so
on and so on and so on and for quite a
while I I argue that if Israel defines
itself as the Jewish State and decorates
its airplanes and tanks with Jewish
symbols the first thing that we have to
do is to try to understand what is
jewishness what are the relationship
between Judaism jewishness the Jew what
are the relationship between these three
an Zionism these are fundamentals now
for quite a while because of the
domination of
a a lot of good Jews let's say within
the the
left um we were prevented from going
there we were only allowed to talk about
Zionism or
colonialism Zionism is a misleading
notion Zionism from Israeli perspectives
died in 1948 Zionism was the promise to
form a Jewish state in Zion I.E
Palestine once this state was formed
from an Israeli perspective the project
was gone for Amer for American Jews in
Brooklyn or here in gold as green it is
still it is still a very Vivid concept
but from Israelis it wasn't Zionism that
motivated us or pushed us uh forward we
were Israeli Patriots H we actually
despised the the so-called diaspora Jew
whom we we regarded as very weak people
now apartheid is a very misleading
concept aparte is an exploitive racist
system Israel doesn't want to exploit
the Palestinians it wants them
out colonialism speaks about
relationship between a mother State and
a settler State Israel is where is a
settler state but where is the mother
who is the mother we are using a lot of
terminology that is very misleading I
realized long time ago that it is the
Jewish identity politics that dri the
Jewish State I face a lot of opposition
but now just two weeks ago three weeks
ago we saw that the Israeli cabinet
approved the Jewish National Bill the
Israeli National bill that determines
the Primacy of jewishness in the Israel
State and those who by the way democracy
for sure and those who by the by the way
like CP Liv now she BEC the leftist
until two weeks ago she was a war
criminal you know it's it's like you
know and we are very forgiving and those
who oppose those who oppose the national
bill they don't oppose the essentialist
gist of it they just say we don't need
it because we know that we are we don't
have to write it down we see now
something very interesting in Israel
something very very interesting that
that I
I'm something that shocks me and you
know because obviously I'm an
anti-zionist but what is so fascinating
is Israeli politics at the moment is
that it's actually the ultra
zionists who insist to be truthful to
themselves they say we will go for this
National Bill we understand the
consequences we understand that it's
going to to jeopardize our Foreign
Affairs and so on and so on but this is
what we are we are Jews and we want this
state to be the Jewish State against all
ODS and then we see the Jewish
left trying to to divert the
attention from the factuality of the
Jewish State this is what I tried to do
in the wandering go and I'm very happy H
I was very happy to face so much outrage
because uh it only proved that I had
something to say you are Jewish whether
you resign it or not I'm not I'm I'm not
a Jew anymore this is something that
very important I'm not sure you can
resign it but your your parents were uh
were strong supporters of Zionism and of
of the embryonic uh from a rightwing
family yeah and you served in the
Israeli Army so it's quite difficult to
pin the label anti-site on you as they
try to do on people like me when nothing
could be further from the truth but
here's no no but but but you're right
what every time I was call an
anti-semite or a suggestion that the
wondering is an anti anti-mite text I
said all right all right let's stop for
a second just tell me where did I speak
about Jews as a race as a people as
ethnicity I don't even talk about
Judaism I don't even talk about Judaism
I actually point at the very peculiar
fact in Jewish history that during those
hundred of years of rabinal Judaism Jews
have never been involved as a collective
in any genocide it's actually the
process of
secularism in the Jewish world that
introduced a very interesting and very
devastating uh uh developments in Jewish
culture so we see Zionism is just one
one aspect of it some will talk about
the the
predominance of a of a of a Jews within
the neoconservative school of thought
other would talk about predominance of
the Jews within the Bolshevik Revolution
and so on and so on something very very
interesting H happened at that period of
history that start with emancipation
late 19th century and uh we are within
Academia you cannot even tackled this
this H
issue H scholarly because you may find
yourself being attacked or smeared or
abused by some Jewish lobbies or in my
case physically attacked let me finish
with this uh point the man who attacked
me converted to Judaism and now when
he's released from prison he's going to
go and live in Israel where he has an
automatic right of settlement
citizenship there's a fund that's going
to fund his life there yeah a Birthright
except in his case he was a Christian
until very recently he has no genetic uh
connection to the land of Palestine At
All by the way but but not only that you
are right and your your
attack the way in which you were were
attacked and the and the lameness of the
reaction of the of the British media I
found it totally devastating by the fact
the fact that the fact that gu is a
converted and is not and was so vile is
not very surprising you know we hear
about Isis all the time that a lot of
the combatants there are converts from
Europe what I'm saying what I'm saying
and this was my first reaction to your
uh to this vile attack on you is that we
have to step up MI5 MI6 a police
Metropolitan Police or whatever must
Step Up
H their Ser Alliance and ESP Espionage
within within those Jewish communities
how many how many um British Jews or
American American Jews served in Gaza in
the last three months in in the summer
and were involved in this massacre you
know and if one Palestinian or one
Muslim had gone to fight for the
Palestinian side yeah they'd already be
behind these issues must be addressed
and uh I'm not working in University I'm
completely independent I don't I'm not
an MP um I'm basically just musician I'm
free to say and do what I like to do
speak about your jazz music you
mentioned in the beginning that you are
not political but you have very
articulate political views and I was
just wondering how how does how does it
influence your music does it aect affect
some audience um would they boycott you
because of your St um there was
obviously a lot of attempts to to boycot
me
but I'm I'm a nice guy and I'm Charming
so when they tried to call me an
anti-semite it was slightly pathetic
because I had three Jews H in the band
and when they called me a racist they
again they had a problem because I had a
black guy in the band you know all the
you know it it just doesn't it they
never managed to stop my career for me
to be a jazz
musician is to develop this
ability to reinvent yourself every night
it's pretty much the opposite of a
politician although you are very good at
it I must admit which is genius G we're
going to we're going to have to continue
this uh another time because we've uh
run over you're a fascinating guy as I
said Keep that it's great great to spend
time with you I wish we could do it
thank you on a regular basis coming up
after the break Manchester is a long way
from mtown Detroit Michigan and mtown
singer and DJ Miss H is a long way from
your archetypal Barry Gordy Starlet
continuing the theme of seeing the light
and tripping the light fantastic we'll
be right back
welcome back to Sputnik Music has
Charmed to soothe the Savage Beast said
William congrave in the 17th century it
certainly soothed me in the 1960s when I
discovered tamla Motown and its edgier
cousin Stacks records Otis reading
Marvin Gay little Stevie Wonder The
Supremes The Temptations Jackson 5 and
also les we forget Simon Dave Junior
Walker and the all stars if Chester is a
long way from Moto Town how far distance
is today's xfactor conveyor belt of
manufactured music from very gy Soul
Factory perhaps not as far as you think
joining us now to discuss the distance
traveled is Miss H formerly from a
strict religious background now a real
Soul Sister singer and DJ Miss H thanks
for joining us it's my thesis that mtown
was exactly the same as The X Factor uh
you had a maestro Barry Gordy in the
case of Motown uh Simon Cowell in the
case of X Factor who put people together
artificially who'd never met each other
before as bands and told them what they
should uh uh release and everyone was
happy because the world danced the
artists made a fortune Barry Gordy made
the biggest Fortune of all do you agree
with that um I think that the way it's
engineered is probably similar but I
think that the complete uh difference in
Motown and the style of singers the
fashion uh the words in the you know the
lyrics of the songs are completely
different to some of the things we see
coming through on the X Factor I think
personally my humble opinion is
sometimes the music we see on X Factor
or the show itself is popular because
we're told to think it's popular um you
know with all the exposure that it gets
and all the hype that's on the show and
the way it tugs at your heartstrings
things like that but I think looking at
the show there's a lot of engineering
and a bit of manipulation of people's
emotions this year's 2014 X Factor Ben
Hao uh he's a decent fellow uh with a
half decent voice but he defeated in the
final ballot 10 million people having
voted by the way uh so it raised a lot
of money that ballot
uh Flur a black singer uh with
phenomenal talent I mean I'll predict
that 12 months from now she'll be a
worldwide
Superstar uh but Ben Hao a rather
ordinary act defeated her I take the
view you may or may not agree that she
lost because she was black because she
had a black family although a white
father uh and because her music was
black music and in a poll of 10
million although there will be Millions
who like black music that's not going to
be a winner what's your
view well if that was the case I would
be absolutely horrified there's an actor
from The IT Crowd I noticed in the um
mirror paper um said that the British
public are quite discriminative against
black people which um surprised me it
was the first time really that i' looked
into this on this subject I'm interested
in it you're white uh but you're a soul
singer you're a Motown singer you're a
Motown DJ you play black music yeah uh
the people you're playing it too and
singing too are they black or are they
white and how do you explain it if
they're white H there's a mix really I
think the people that I'm drawn to and
who are drawn to me like the same kind
of genre of music R&B hip hop Soul mot
toown um I even get Northern Soul
requests so I've got loads of that uh I
think really it without offending anyone
I think it's it's the best kind of music
it's got the best Rhythm the best vocals
I just prefer it more than the average
pop that you get and I really don't like
the average pop scene
really well the the origins of mtown are
of course in in the Blues in uh
Jazz banks of the Mississippi the urban
the urban Wasteland of uh of the ghetto
and so on I'm wondering H how that's so
attractive to and appealing to People
Like Us who don't come from there or
that uh background we we were lucky
enough to be on the right side of the
tracks this music is from the wrong side
of the tracks what's the appeal I think
because this thing with so much feeling
and the lyrics you know they really grab
you I understand that mot toown um and
rap as well earlier rap does date back
to the times of Oppression and domestic
violence things like that and you know
wanting to be released from the
oppression and I think with some people
who understand that they really really
do appreciate that kind of music well I
was there first time around um I would
have been in the dance halls uh around
uh
6768 and this wave I mean talk about a
Hit Factory there there were hundreds of
hit records coming out to of Motown at
at that time so it was a soundtrack of
my youth but you weren't born then and
yet you still love that same music tell
us why well as you said it's got soul
that speaks to your heart and even
though I take your point of The X Factor
and Motown being similar music
Industries
factories it's as she said as Miss H
says the soul that gets through it that
gets uh transferred to the listener is
completely different from nowadays from
EST to Motown yeah kind but you know the
this concept of Simon cow people think
it's Simon cow's concept of choosing
entirely desperate people putting them
together in a band first of all has
always been done secondly uh was done
not just by black music empresarios but
white the monkeys for example who
weren't actually a bad band they were
for entire strangers who people were
invited to write in uh to join a band
called the monkeys and they rot in from
all over the country the United States
the world they became uh big stars or
One Direction One Direction had never
set eyes on each other before Simon car
put them together now they're the
biggest band in the entire world and
Ronnie Wood of The Rolling Stones was
playing with them on stage on The X
Factor final and guess what Wonder ction
are becoming quite a great
band you surprised at that I'm not
surprised because I do see a lot of
people that are fans especially in the
younger generation and I think they they
are quite suitable for maybe the younger
generation um you know 10 year old me
but he was drawn to appear with them
because he could see that they've kind
of got something is that is that really
the case or is that just an engineered
media stunt uh well that's a good
question I I think I've got enough
respect for Ronnie Wood's Integrity that
he wouldn't have played with them if uh
he doesn't need the money yeah uh he's
been with the Rolling Stones for 20
years uh playing for a million pounds
each per gig uh I think he saw something
in them which means that Simon Cowell
saw something in them that turned out to
be right yeah okay tell us how you got
into this groove of MOT toown and Soul
music and yeah how your friends and
family responded to that um I think from
a very young age I've always been around
um musical family my brother used to
play saxophone um my older brother used
to love his music too my sister always
used to play things like Whitney Houston
as she was getting ready to go out
things like that um also you know
growing up I I had a really good chance
and opportunity to mix with an um a
diverse group of people so I was exposed
to a a lot of different kinds of music
and the main kind of music was M Town
soul that kind of thing and I I just
developed a love for it and obviously
looking up to people that were older
than me uh and the kind of music they
liked I think that had a a measure of
influence and also uh since I've been
singing uh a lot more recently my
partner he's a major lover of soul and
R&B hip hop and he was the one really
that pushed me into singing more soul
and mtown and since then it's we quite a
success for me yeah give us your website
address so people could check you out
miss. co.uk miss. co.uk there'll be a
lot of people hitting right
now and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's ratling gri we
talking about music Motown versus X
Factor it has sparked a lot of debate
let's put it that way Brandon Hall says
both are about products Diana Ross and
The Supremes Talent does not mean
anything nor did it ever you want real
music go and see a live band in a small
Club well uh all acts start out as live
bands in uh small clubs and of course
it's a product everything in capitalist
Society is a product this television
show is a product it doesn't invalidate
it the fact that one way or another
you've got to pay to see it and it's got
to be marketed so I I don't buy that
criticism I must say what about Roy G
Simmon there's so much cynicism here pop
music is what it is it is what is
popular on the day Mozart wrote pop
music motan was great and X Factor
reflects that but what is best is
totally subjective and Lucy pelli says
the message is what once took talent and
years of hard work can now be achieved
overnight with autotune and the right
hairstyle I for one have got one well
you've got the perfect
Ronette uh hairstyle the the ronet of
course were entirely manufactured by
Barry Gordy and under the direction of a
a very crazy producer uh Phil Spectre
who's now serving life for murder yeah
know even though he created that
fantastic the wall of sound yeah I mean
these are all products I don't know why
people are being so sniffy about that
there's one thing I'm going to say
without fear of contradiction on the X
they have Motown nights where the acts
perform Motown classics 50 years from
now nobody will be doing garage Classics
or trans Classics or rap I know you like
rap or rap Classics Motown has lived
will live new genre will fall by the
wayside I may sound like a grumpy old
man but that's my point of view well
let's close it with that then which alas
means that's the end of the show you can
stay in touch with us on Twitter on rtor
Sputnik and on Facebook you can like us
on sputnic on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gri and from me George Galloway
it's been marvelous
[Music]